The other day, I asked readers to comment on What Joins Us Together and What Sets Us Apart. There has only been one comment, and I suggest you take the time to read it. The author of the comment suggests that there is no such thing as damnation, that God wants only to love, forgive and heal us. Here is my response:
Hi Rick, and thank you for visiting and for your comment. I disagree with a number of things you’ve written, however.
First off, as to someone saying that we “deserve” to be eternally tortured by God… We have been cautioned repeatedly throughout Scripture not to judge others. The task of judgment does not belong to us. And while I will not say that none of us "deserves" eternal torture, I will say that none of us "deserves" God's love. The best among us falls far short of being good enough to "deserve" God's love.
Secondly, as to the nature of hell... We don’t know what hell… or heaven… is like. The notion of eternally burning in flames is probably a concept that evolved to suggest the misery we will endure if we do not accept the salvation that has been freely offered to us.
As I say, we don’t know what hell is like, but I imagine it as a state where we are eternally separated from God… and that we make this choice ourselves while here on earth. To me, this would be a terrible torture indeed.
I agree that Jesus made it clear that God loves us unconditionally and wishes to forgive and heal us all. But once again, by our own choice we can reject his love and forgiveness.
With all due respect, the thrust of your message seems to be that you have the insight to know with certainty what portions of Scripture are free of error and what portions of Scripture were inaccurately transcribed and thus may be ignored. IMHO, you’re treading on extremely thin ice there, and I’m not willing to follow you out on the pond.
The notion that there is no hell, that there are no consequences for rejecting God… This notion may comfort you here on earth, but are you willing to gamble with the eternal life to come?
Personally, I am not.
What about you? How would you respond to this comment?
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Hi Sue - somehow I missed your original post, but have now caught up! - and agree that there must be a hell for those who deliberately reject God's love and refuse to have anything to do with Him. Where else would they go?
ReplyDeleteOf course God loves all His creation - the universe, men, angels, even the fallen angel Lucifer, were all created by love and for love. But nobody can be dragged into heaven against their will, for that would not be love.
The doctrine of Hell may be unpleasant, but it comes from Our Lord Himself; I don't have the temerity to suggest that He didn't know what He was teaching.
ReplyDeleteDave
I have had a lot of dialog with Universalists. The question I mostly have for them deals with the dignity of man because we are created in God's image.. hence we are not merely divine pets to be eternally taken care of by God.. because of that we have a role in our destiny.
ReplyDeleteThe other question I have centers around the idea that people will change because of the knowledge they have after they die.. why would anyone respect a decision not made out of love?
Actually, it's no gamble at all to agree with what Jesus originally taught about the nature of God. But for the sake of argument, let's just say that Jesus said God was unforgiving, didn't want to heal us, help us, and so on, and that his intention from the get go was to torture billions for eternity, with the exception of only a few.
ReplyDeleteEven if you were to initially end up in Heaven trying to sing endless praises to a God who is, simultaneously, torturing billions of others, unless you are given a de facto lobotomy (in which case, YOU would no longer be YOU, so you might as well have not had a soul to begin with), you would have to begin wondering, "When am I next?" and the joy of Heaven would be lost, replaced by gloom and foreboding! Why? Because you could never rely on a God who is so mean to be honest about making any exceptions.
After all, which is more difficult? For God to actively cause so much immense pain, for so many, for so long, or to go back on whatever promises he made to a few others that he would not put them in Hell too at some point?
It would be like accepting an invitation to live as a guest with one of these maniacal men we've been hearing about lately who kidnap, imprison, rape and torture young girls in secret basements.
Can you imagine such a guy, simultaneously, having some other young lady as his dinner date, and treating her with respect and care? And even if he did for a while, wouldn't his true nature unleash itself upon her at some point in time, as it has on so many others? Of course!
You can soft sell Hell, by saying "it may not be literal flames," but in that case, you're saying the Holy Spirit was pretty bad at choosing metaphors! Couple that with the knowledge that all pain is actually "mental," and we're right back to the same point--does God inflict pain, just to see you suffer?
This also misses the entire point of Jesus' Ultimate Act as THE Word or Expression of God, on the cross! There, he took the absolute worst sort of human mistreatment. There, he was tortured by us and, yet, his reaction was "Father, forgive them!" The thin ice is to somehow take what Jesus did, and say, "Naw, God's love is conditional, God can't forgive, and God must not have answered Jesus' prayer on the cross!"
I could go on but for any interested, I've actually written an entire book on this topic--Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There's No Such Place As Hell, (for anyone interested, you can get a free ecopy of Did Jesus Believe in Hell?, one of the most compelling chapters in my book at www.thereisnohell.com).
Again, Rick, I find it problematic that you pick and choose what words of Scripture are Jesus’ original teachings versus what you believe to be error added in over the years. And again, I don’t believe that Jesus ever said God was unforgiving, unwilling to heal or help us, or bent on torturing billions for all eternity. I don’t believe that for a second.
ReplyDeleteBut I DO believe that we have been given free will by a loving God who wants nothing more than to enter into a loving relationship with his children. And that he respects us enough to allow us to choose… or refuse… his love.
And make no mistake: if I DO go to hell, it will grieve God greatly.
God did not create us to be automatons that he controls against our will. He gave us the freedom to choose whether to accept or reject his love and forgiveness. God isn’t “causing so much immense pain”: we are doing so by refusing to accept his offer, freely given.
As to “accepting an invitation to live as a guest with one of those maniacal men”, I see no evidence to support the idea that God would receive us into his presence and then whimsically evict us.
Rather I believe that we make the decision where we are to spend eternity – either in his presence (heaven) or absolutely removed from his presence (hell). God isn’t “inflicting pain”. We are choosing to embrace it by refusing his love and forgiveness.
You mentioned Jesus’ suffering on the cross. If you reread Luke 23:39-43, you will see that there were two thieves crucified with him. Only one of them reached out to receive our Lord, and to this one, Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise”. Jesus simply reaffirmed the choices these thieves freely made.
I don't like to think about hell and the suffering that will take place there, but Jesus himself talked about it, so I have to believe it exists. I agree with you, Sue, that it is our own choice that would put us there, not God inflicting cruel and undeserved punishment.
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